Byzantines - the most medicore civ, they can do everything and in everything they can be relativly good, but in everything they are always behind other civs. Civ without specialization other than counter other civs.
And this is great in this civ, many people say this is civ very good for beginners, but also Pros appreciated them - Viper gave them rank B, but thinks about A in his CivRank.
But they are also practicly not picked in Tournaments (only TatoH pick them), because always is better.
I know for sure, here are many Byzantines fans, like me.
So, can we buff them a little without changing the overall feelig about this civ?
Necessery changes in my, simple noob who likes stats, opinion:
- Give them Siege Engineers Tech. This is more defensive tech, than offensive - Treb outrange Castle without this, Treb and SR even without this extra damage are effective, bur this +1 range is really important during trebwars and for BBC defence against Onagers. And is simply no reason why Byz dont have this. Their Siege is allready weak, and almost all civs without SE have something in exchange:
- Chinese have buffed Scorps
- Cumans can build rams age erlier
- Huns have more accurate Trebs
- Mayans have Siege Archers
- Goths and Malians have Siege Infantry
- Turks, Italians and Spanish have buffed BBC (Turk more range, Italian cheaper, Spanish fire faster)
- Persians have stronger SR, mean, War Elephant
Only Byz and Lithuanians dont have anything in exchange.
- Lower the cost of Cataphract Elite Upgrade. Now is 1600F 800G, and this is second most expensive Elite upgrade, only Elite War Elephant is more expensive. Need change to Something like 1000F 600G - what is exact same as Boyar Elite Upgrade.
Cataphract should be able to compet with other cavalry UU in terms of cost. And after LKh, it cannot.
- Leitis has upgrade almost half cheaper, but is also more expensive, so this is good
- Keshik has really similar stats, and cost almost half and is created much faster
- Konnik - the most painfull one. Has practicly the same role, is less specialized, cost less, created faster and EK has literaly 190 HP
- Boyar is created faster.
Cataphract is very strong, but is so expensive to upgrade so is really rare to see.
- Buff Cata stats. But only normal Castle Age Cataphract, not the Elite one. Elite is fine. In CA is litaraly no reason to make Cataphract, exept fighting Indians - is strong vs infantry and camels, and CA is dominated by knights and archers. Of course, Byz can make camels and skirs or archers, but later transition into Cata is very painfull. If Cata will be able to go toe-to-toe with knight, it will be reason to mass them before Imp. +10 HP and 1,73 rate of fire (the same as Elite) should be enough.
- Lower the cost of Cataphract, -5G
- Slightly Lower Cata TT.
- Give Byz new UU, created in Barracks after hiting Imp, Varangian Guard
- 60F 30G
- TT 24s
- 75 HP
- 16 dmg
Bonus +4 vs cav,
Trample damage 1 dmg
- 2/2 armour
- 2,03 rate of fire
- 1,05 speed
- 5 LOS
And take away Champion upgrade.
2.Give them new UT in place of Greek Fire. Tech Varangians what gives militia-line +20 HP. Greek Fire effect add as Civ Bonus, after hitting Castle. This will be nice addition to their Infantry (their Champs are now not that great) and will be nice powerup for water, because they will have imidiet powerboost for their Firegaleys after hitting Castle.
- Give to the Greek Fire additional effect - defensive structures deal bonus damage vs siege and ships (like +10)
- Give them small early eco bonus. Like cheaper houses (15W) maybe?
- Give them Fire Tower and Flamethrower
- Give them War Galey upgrade for free
- Give them cheaper repairs
- Give them water fortifications.
Of course, necessery ones are important ones. Rest is for fun!
4 LikesSours: https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/byzantines-need-they-slight-change/79776
- Elite Skirmisher
- Hand Cannoneer
- Heavy Cavalry Archer
- Heavy Camel Rider
- Siege Ram
- Siege Tower
- Bombard Cannon
- Elite Cataphract
- Bearded Axe
- Fishing Ship
- Transport Ship
- Trade Cog
- Fast Fire Ship
- Heavy Demo Ship
- Elite Cannon Galleon
- Dry Dock
- Block Printing
- Leather Archer Armor
- Bodkin Arrow
- Iron Casting
- Plate Barding Armor
- Plate Mail Armor
- Murder Holes
- Forified Wall
- Bombard Tower
- Siege Engineers
- Town Patrol
- Hand Cart
- Gold Shaft Mining
- Stone Shaft Mining
While the Western Roman Empire decayed and collapsed, its eastern half in Byzantium remained an imperial titan for centuries to come. Repulse countless invasions with imposing fortifications, command vast and versatile armies amassed from within and outside your borders, and immolate enemy fleets with siphons of Greek Fire. Your heavily-armored Cataphracts inspire fear from the Danube to the Euphrates while your scholars propel you into a new age of technology and learning!
- Buildings +10% HPs Dark, +20% Feudal, +30% Castle, +40% Imperial Age
- Camel Riders, Skirmishers, Pikemen, Halberdiers cost -25%
- Fire ships attack 20% faster
- Advance to Imperial Age costs -33%
- Town Watch free
Byzantine unique cavalry unit. Strong vs. infantry. Weak vs. archers.
|Greek Fire (Fire Ships +1 range)|
|Logistica (Cataphracts cause trample damage)|
The Byzantines took their name from Byzantium, an ancient city on the Bosphorus, the strategic waterway linking the Black Sea to the Aegean Sea. The Roman Emperor Constantine had renamed this city Constantinople in the fourth century and made it a sister capital of his empire. This eastern partition of the Roman Empire outlived its western counterpart by a thousand years, defending Europe against invasions from the east by Persians, Arabs, and Turks. The Byzantines persevered because Constantinople was well defended by walls and the city could be supplied by sea. At their zenith in the sixth century, the Byzantines covered much of the territories of the original Roman Empire, lacking only the Iberian Peninsula (modern Spain and Portugal), Gaul (modern France), and Britain. The Byzantines also held Syria, Egypt, and Palestine, but by the middle of the seventh century they had lost them to the Arabs. From then on their empire consisted mainly of the Balkans and modern Turkey.
The first great Byzantine emperor was Justinian I (482 to 565). His ambition was to restore the old Roman Empire and he nearly succeeded. His instrument was the greatest general of the age, Belisarius, who crisscrossed the empire defeating Persians to the East, Vandals in North Africa, Ostrogoths in Italy, and Bulgars and Slavs in the Balkans. In addition to military campaigns, Justinian laid the foundation for the future by establishing a strong legal and administrative system and by defending the Christian Church.
The Byzantine economy was the richest in Europe for many centuries because Constantinople was ideally sited on trade routes between Asia, Europe, the Black Sea, and the Aegean Sea. It was an important destination point for the Silk Road from China. The nomisma, the principal Byzantine gold coin, was the standard for money throughout the Mediterranean for 800 years. Constantinople’s strategic position eventually attracted the envy and animosity of the Italian city-states.
A key strength of the Byzantine Empire was its generally superior army that drew on the best elements of the Roman, Greek, Gothic, and Middle Eastern experience in war. The core of the army was a shock force of heavy cavalry supported by both light infantry (archers) and heavy infantry (armored swordsmen). The army was organized into units and drilled in tactics and maneuvers. Officers received an education in military history and theory. Although outnumbered usually by masses of untrained warriors, it prevailed thanks to intelligent tactics and good discipline. The army was backed by a network of spies and secret agents that provided information about enemy plans and could be used to bribe or otherwise deflect aggressors.
The Byzantine navy kept the sea-lanes open for trade and kept supply lines free so the city could not be starved into submission when besieged. In the eighth century, a land and sea attack by Arabs was defeated largely by a secret weapon, Greek fire. This chemical weapon, its composition now unknown, was a sort of liquid napalm that could be sprayed from a hose. The Arab navy was devastated at sea by Greek fire.
In the seventh and eighth centuries, the Arabs overran Egypt, the Middle East, North Africa, and Spain, removing these areas permanently from Byzantine control. A Turkish victory at Manzikert in 1071 led to the devastation of Asia Minor, the empire’s most important source of grain, cattle, horses, and soldiers. In 1204 Crusaders led by the Doge of Venice used treachery to sack and occupy Constantinople.
In the fourteenth century, the Turks invaded Europe, capturing Adrianople and bypassing Constantinople. They settled the Balkans in large numbers and defeated a large crusader army at Nicopolis in 1396. In May 1453, Turkish sultan Mehmet II captured a weakly defended Constantinople with the aid of heavy cannon. The fall of the city brought the Byzantine Empire to an end.
I was thinking that it would be cool to see the Byzantines as a playable civilization in AoE4 which would allow you to take two different paths one where it’s more of a Roman way of life, with their beliefs, etc in the Western part of the Roman Empire while also introducing the Eastern part of the Roman Empire aka the Greek side of the Byzantines.
Each path introducing unique playable tactics, units, and other strategies to make them different enough, which allows you for certain playstyles depending on which one you want to play as in the game. For example, on the Greek side, you could introduce abilities such as the “Greek fire”. (Used to set fire to enemy ships, it consisted of a combustible compound emitted by a flame-throwing weapon)
This would also give the developers a chance to introduce the history of the Byzantines which is important, as it has both Roman & Greek influences in the two different parts of the Roman Empire while also coming up with unique strategies for each part for us to explore around with.
I’m sorry if this has already been discussed but couldn’t find a topic that is talking specifically about this. Take care!
12 LikesSours: https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/the-byzantine-empire-as-a-playable-civilization/125312
Empires byzantines of age
Heirs to the Roman Empire. But despite their extended technology tree, they can’t make legionaries.
- Buildings +10% HP Dark +20% HP Feudal, +30% HP Castle, +40% HP Imperial Age
- Camels, Skirmishers, Spearmen, Pikemen, Halberdiers cost -25%
- Fire Ships +20% attack
- Advance to Imperial costs -33%
- Free Townwatch
- Unique Technologies: Greek Fire, Logistica
- Team Bonus: Monks +50% heal speed
Analysis of bonuses
Buildings +10% HP Dark +20% HP Feudal, +30% HP Castle, +40% HP Imperial Age
This bonus is actually double sided and that extra side is not documented anywhere in the techtree. Yet, it holds truth. Alongside the bonus also comes an indirect build speed advantage. Thus a Byzantine villager does not need more time to construct a building than any other civ. For example a town center in the castle age: regular civs need 1:30 minutes to construct 2400 HP, while Byzantines need exactly the same time to construct their 3120 HP TC.
So a great bonus for defensive building and it makes Byzantine castles very fierce opponents in trebuchet wars (a whopping 6720 HP without upgrades).
Camels, Skirmishers, Spearmen, Pikemen, Halberdiers cost -25%
Arguably the best bonus in the Byzantine arsenal. Their cheap trashunits are unprecedented. When engaging in a trashwar against these heirs of the Roman empire, you better brace up to learn some Latin. This especially holds true in feudal age trashwars. When Byzantines even catch up with the economical advantage of the Huns. Huns save about 30-40 wood per house while Byzantines save 9 wood and 5 food per skirmisher (and 9 food, 5 wood per spear). So a pack of roughly 30 units probably already covers the disadvantage. You smell a game coming now probably and right you are. Here’s a classic match where DauT goes nothing but Skirmishers all game long. So when in doubt, go Skirmishers!
An often overlooked bonus are the Byzantine camels though, mainly made in case of emergency but they might be a good combination for fast impers?
Fire Ships +20% attack
A rarely used bonus and probably the only design error made during the development of AoE2. Naval battles are 99% of the time decided by galleys or their successors. A whole fleet of these is simply not to stop by anything else except unique units. However, luckily this bonus sometimes encourages players to think out of the box and make fire ships.
And hell, you don’t even need to be a Byzantine to pull it off!
Advance to Imperial costs -33%
Another great bonus to cover the lack of any economical bonus. The bonus above shows that military and economy go hand in hand. But in boom games, early discounts don’t make the cut against a full imperial army. That’s why Byzantines have a cheaper imp. Combined with their cheap trash units, this even makes them a good boom civ. In a weird way of course, but they make the cut.
A map where this discount is most fearsome is arena. Castle dropping a Byzantine can prove suicidal if he decides to engage in a race to imp. Because no matter what, 333 food and 264 gold is quite an advantage for fragile fast imp economies.
This bonus probably looks most worthless to newer players but I can imagine most experienced players call this the 2nd best bonus of the Byzantines. Why? Because Byzantines are downright bad in the dark age. They probably come out last and are most likely forced into defence unless they forward. And when being pushed into defence with 4 extra LOS, you just might see everything and anyone coming. Making your defensive tasks a lot easier.
Also keep this in mind when rushing a Byzantine, especially when trushing. He will probably see you coming and if he builds his tower earlier than you, his extra HP will give him the cut!
Team Bonus: Monks +50% heal speed
Perhaps the most useless team bonus in the game. Sure it helps when you’re monk rushing but it’s no key bonus. Safe to say this bonus rarely decides a game.
- Cost: 70 food, 75 gold
- Attack: 9 (Elite: 12)
- Armor: 2/1 (Elite: 2/1)
- HP: 110 (Elite: 150)
- Elite Upgrade: 1600 food, 800 gold
When I first played AoE2, this unit was amongst my favourites. They looked good and they are simply good. And up to today, that still holds truth. What makes them so strong then? Not their raw force though, but their bonuses against various units. Most obviously the pikeman line. The ultimate cavalry counter does not counter these horse riders. Which makes it the only horse unit to withstand all trash units. In fact, they even perform good against camels and small flocks of mamelukes too. So if the normal cavalry counters don’t work, what does? The answer is not very straightforward. The best counters are either massed archers, paladins or huge masses of halberdiers. If you pick the latter, you must be prepared for major losses since a fully upgraded cataphract only needs 2 slashes to kill a halberdier (trample damage taken into account).
But with all these good sides, also come bad sides. All the upgrades for cataphracts combined cost 3970 food and 1870 gold. Which is almost equal to the cost of upgrading an elephant! Besides that, compared to their counters, they must be created from a castle, making them even harder to mass.
However, a game previously posted on the box proved that even fragile economies can afford cataphracts. It just takes some very good economy balance.
If you haven’t stumbled upon the game yet, you can find it back in the Sun Tzu article under the “Haste” paragraph.
It has already been mentioned above, but to stress it again, cataphracts are extremely costly. Both to train and to upgrade. Their unique technology is even the most expensive of the whole game with a whopping 1000 food and 600 gold. It gives your units trample damage though. This means that when a cataphract attacks a unit in front of him, he will also deal damage (5) to whatever unit is around him. Even buildings! The most practical example can be found in cataphracts vs halberdiers: if a cataphract is surrounded by 2 halberdiers, he will kill the one in front of him in 3 strikes. But in the meanwhile, the halberdier left of him has suffered 15 damage already. So he will die after only 2 more strikes.
This highlights the importance of using patrol when attacking with cataphracts, so they can maximize their use of trample damage.
Dominance through the Ages
Byzantines are simply the worse civ in the dark age. They have some competition from Saracens and Magyars but that’s about it. Neither of these civs have any bonus during the dark age. Except when you want to consider the 10% extra HP on palisade walls as a bonus of course. However, let’s quickly advance to the…
From zero to hero, that’s how you could call the feudal age upgrade for Byzantines. The former Romans start to shine here because of their extremely cheap trash units. Which means there is a discount for half of the most commonly used units in the feudal age. Besides that their free townwatch upgrade kicks in right here.
Byzantines are a bit different to control in the castle age. Their trash bonus still lives on and it might be worthwhile to take this path. They lack a bit in the cavalry department though. Surprisingly if you look at the amount of horse units they can make, but they don’t have bloodlines. They still have no economical bonus either.
But with good archers, decent knights, great trash and very good monks, there is still plenty of choice left.
Early Imperial Age
Time to shine. The Byzantines actually represent the East Roman Empire and since they were around till 1453 AD it’s a nice historical detail to make Byzantines shine so late. Their cheaper imp and cheap trash ranks them amongst the higher tiers. Add gunpowder to this combination and a very wide techtree overall. Which path to chose? Needless to say, Byzantines are great to play mind games on your opponent.
Byzantines can claim their top tier back in this age. Civs have had the time to do their most expensive upgrades but a combination of trash units with cataphracts is hard to beat, no matter what. However, the choice is not limited to this. Byzantines can be played like an archer civ or even an infantry civ. Hell, they can even be played like a cavalry or a gunpowder civ. All without a bonus though, but they can field arbalests, champions, paladins and the full gunpowder arsenal.
Post Imperial Age (no trade)
It’s about time to stop mentioning their trash units, but this is the last time they really shine. Once gold runs out, the Byzantine will or should win the battle. The economical advantage is simply too great, even if their hussars and halberdiers lack some upgrades.
Post Imperial age (with trade)
When trade carts are strolling back and forth between markets, Byzantines lose a little bit of their strength. Sure they can field bombard towers, guns and mighty horse riders. But since none of these come with a bonus, they can’t be considered top tier anymore. Especially since at this point, raw power is more crucial than cost effective units.
Byzantines are one of the few civs without any economical bonus, just like Goths. But just like Goths, they make up for that with a cheaper line of units. Besides that, Byzantines have every economical upgrade in the book, so late game, there isn’t any notable problem.
However, this is still the main weakness of Byzantines. Even though they’re incredibly strong throughout the ages, they have no notable bonus to finance their strengths.
Only lacking blast furnace, Byzantines can be played as an infantry civ. They have champions, halberdiers and besides the last attack upgrade, any other upgrade.
Byzantines simply have the greatest tech tree of them all. Even their archers have every upgrade. Only cavalry archers are running behind without bloodlines and Parthian tactics.
And last but not least the Byzantines can be treated as a cavalry civ too. They lack the last attack upgrade and bloodlines, but besides that they’re one of the civs blessed with paladins.
This is the only department where Byzantines lack a bit. They can make siege rams, bombard cannons and onagers. But without siege onagers, heavy scorpions and most important, siege engineers, their imperial siege strength is very limited. But with everything mentioned so far, who needs heavy scorpions or siege onagers?
My favourite sound of the game, let’s all chant wololo! Byzantines have no “Herbal Medicine” but to be fair, unless you’re Aztecs with an overdose of gold, no one will ever research this tech. All other techs are available though.
With a naval bonus and the full naval techtree at your service, Byzantines have everything.
The extra HP on buildings, fully upgraded towers and bombard towers. A very population effective way to control the map. A Byzantine castle can even have up to 8131 HP. Not a single other structure can compete with this.
Before we write out the conclusion, you might want to check out a wrap up by ZeroEmpires, giving an overview of the Byzantines in his Zero to Hero series.
Byzantines are a top tier civilisation throughout the whole game. They lack a free economical bonus but they make up for that with their cheap trash and extremely wide tech tree. In fact, if you like to think out of the box, or play mind games, this civ is simply the best. However, a broad tech tree means you must stay focussed on your plans. It’s very tempting to use various parts of their technologies in a rush but because they lack a bonus to pay this, so use your brain to the max!
Ubi concordia, ibi victoria – Where is the unity, there is the victory.
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