Greg Langelius * said:
I used to run a Savage 10ML, and ran it on actual smokeless rifle powder. A few discoveries. Sabots and smokeless don't work; there isn't enough bore friction to allow the charge to build pressure and burn fully. Power Belts do work and work very well.
Reading the 209 primer for pressure signs is tricky but can permit some insight.
The charges that come in the included literature are all basically for pistol/shotgun powders and correspond largely to pistol type charges for similar weight bullets. Doing workups with rifle powders got us to well over 2000fps and were very effective and accurate out as far as 250yd.
So what happened? A bad thing and a sad thing happened.
First, we (this was a club/group project) started to see unaccountable deep pitting in the area of the barrel that would account for the "chamber" area. It got really serious and we put on the brakes. It was reported here.
Then, some time later, Savage withdrew the 10ML from its product line. We figured the handwriting was on the wall, and the 10ML's became wall hangers.
I repeat this now as a clear warning, the Savage 10ML was unique in its being designed and marketed for use with non-BP-substitute smokeless powders. IMHO, Its withdrawal should be interpreted as a warning that this was maybe not such a good idea, and should not be continued of you should happen to come across one these days. No other Factory BP rifle that I am aware of was ever made to be, or should be, tried or considered safe to operate with non-BP-substitute smokeless powders.
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Do you base this off of keyboard commando experience, or REAL experience? I ask because I have extensive, real live experience.
I have a smokeless barrel with over a thousand rounds of SMOKELESS, SABOTED rounds through it. Accuracy was sub-MOA with duplex AA5744/H322 loads and Shockwave 200gr bullets. Killed deer out to 420 yards. The factory rifle was discontinued due to the small market and a handful of idiots who loaded incorrectly and blew barrels due to blatant stupidity.
The fact that you reference sabots as having "insufficient bore friction" clearly shows your lack of actual experience with these arms. I have 1000+ such rounds down the barrel and sir, they work quite well. The biggest improvement was to barrel a .45 rather than a .50, which blew sabots.
State laws changed, I no longer had a need to depend on the SML as my main hunting rile, and so I've changed the action to a 243AI. But I have the barrel sitting here with 1000+ rounds on it and no breech plug. There is no pitting. I can post pics. Can you post pics of these pitted barrels??
There are a lot of people who continue to shoot smokeless muzzleloaders with non issues, custom built, as they don't need to be concerned with the liability of a major manufacturer...
NOW...to the OP...I shot a stock T/C Omega with the only modification being bedding the stock. 325Gr FTX bullet over 110gr 777. Just over 1 MOA at 500 yards on my first try, 5 shot group. Frankly it would have been tighter if I thought I stood a chance of shooting as well as I did and took my time. Never had a chance to repeat that, but I was seriously impressed with the potential.
Need Advice on long-range muzzleloader barrel for Encore platform
I've had numerous people on the verge of throwing away their muzzleloader then 3 months later knocking down an elk and talking nice about their weapon again
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Long Range Muzzle-Loader
Its the Ultimate Firearms Inc. BP Xpress.
The RU is the little brother to the UF rifle. Remington purchased the rights to UF's patented ignition system. Remington made the breech plug slightly different in hardness and threads, but still use production barrels.
NOTE: BOTH THE RU AND THE UF RIFLES ARE CAPABLE OF MUCH HIGHER CHARGES AND BARREL PRESSURES THAN MASS PRODUCED MUZZLELOADERS. DO NOT SHOOT LOADS DESIGNED FOR THE RU OR UF IN PRODUCTION RIFLES.
The Ultimate Firearms Inc. BP Xpress has a much higher quality Lothar Walther barrel, with a 1:26 twist, with a muzzle brake. Its built using the Remington 40X action. It will send a 300gr bullet down range at 2,300fps, EXCEPTIONALLY ACCURATELY, using 3-T7M pellets (180grs). It will shoot loose propellant as well, but it is NOT recommended for shooting BH209. The heavy charges these rifles are capable of, are not for the recoil shy.
The Ultimate Firearms Inc. BP Xpress is extremely accurate, more accurate than most shooters are capable of shooting. To get the most from the UF rifle, top quality STURDY mounts and rings, with a high quality scope is a must. The recoil the rifle produces, will destroy lessor quality mounts, rings and scopes.
I purchased one myself and have had it for three years. It is definitely different than what modern inline shooters are used to. It uses a Winchester .45 magnum brass case as a primer carrier, and magnum rifle primers. There's no fumbling around trying to prime the rifle. You just drop the brass into the action and close the bolt. Open the action and remove the brass to unload for transport. However it is a rifle built one at a time and the cost is prohibitive to many. It is a high quality hunting muzzleloader, built specifically for long range hunting. UF rifles have harvested many large game animals, including brown bear and African game.
How accurate can they be? Here's a couple target photos shot from my BP Xpress:
My first attempt at 500yds. Witnessed and signed.
Best long range muzzleloader
If a heavier rifle isn't an issue for you and you decided on a RUM, then before I shot it, I'd have the Gen2 breech plug installed and I'd have a brake installed. I learned there's a huge difference in muzzle brakes and the T-Rex brake is now my brake of choice over a radial.
Encore50A I read a post on another forum I believe you wrote regarding the Remington 700 uml and adding a muzzel brake and also the gen 2. Great information. I have a upcoming whitetail hunt this season and will be ordering a new muzzeloader this week. I am new to the whole long range shooting but want to get the right setup that I can work with and not have to but another gun for awhile. What would your opinion be to go with without going fully custom? Thanks for the info and help
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You must understand this, you shoot 180grs volume of T7 and a 300gr bullet without a brake and once you get your ship back together, you'll look around behind you for your head! Let me advise you, that's a recoil you'll only want to feel once. Even when shooting BH209 with the Gen2 system, when you dump 150grs volume and a 300gr bullet, there's a LOT of recoil even though these rifles are heavy.
I'm not recoil shy. You shoot it, I'll shoot it kind of shooter. But I also have my limits. Installing a QUALITY brake of any kind is what you want. Take my word for it.
Now you know what I mean about shooting a heavy charge without a brake.
Here's how a good brake tames one of these rifles
Forum long range muzzleloader
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