Fernco abs to pvc

Fernco abs to pvc DEFAULT

Dave Yates: ABS or PVC?

Forty-eight years ago, as a plumbing apprentice, we used ABS schedule 40 piping and fittings for DWV work. At that time, only cast iron pipe and fittings were permitted for use below grade. Transition from cast iron was made using a caulk ferrule inserted into a cast iron hub, packed with oakum and poured molten lead. 

As I learned the hard way, if you attempt to caulk the lead too soon, the caulking tool will go straight through the heated ABS ferrule. I also came to learn that you had to wait for the molten lead to cool somewhat before pouring the joint. Rocking gently back and forth in the lead ladle until the molten lead started to curdle slightly as it sloshed while rocking. Those who wanted to cheat cut corners by simply stuffing the raw pipe into the cast iron hub.

However, this was easily spotted by sharp-eyed plumbing inspectors who often required the transition joint be redone properly. 

Then came no-hub cast iron and fittings, and eventually, since change doesn’t happen overnight, away went our lead pots, burners and on rare occasions we would melt a pig of lead by torch into a lead ladle, heat the ladle with torch until the lead was molten and rocking revealed it was ready to pour. More often than not, this was for a replacement closet flange lead joint. 

A new introduction

It wasn’t until 1977 that our local supply house began stocking PVC schedule 40 pipe and fittings, and we made the transition from ABS. It was taboo to mix ABS with PVC using solvent cementing. We encountered more than a few failed transition joints where PVC solvent cement did not properly bond PVC/ABS. You could knock them apart with a hammer and that was also true for PVC joints assembled without using primer. 

My bosses in 1977 didn’t want to use primer, but changed their minds when callbacks for failed joints grabbed their attention. At that time, all-purpose solvent cement looked promising, but our local plumbing inspectors wouldn’t allow its use. 

Transition from ABS to PVC had to be made with either a no-hub or rubber fernco coupling. We dealt with multiple AHJs (Authority Having Jurisdiction) who each had their own code modifications. In one township, no fernco couplings could be used, whereas in a neighboring township, no no-hub couplings were allowed! You could also use male/female transition fittings. 

The first thing we had to do, after driving to a job site with ABS strapped to our roof racks, was work out the deformity from being exposed to sunlight. We would position the ABS pipes to let the sun’s rays bend it back straight again and then move it inside away from direct sunlight. Leave ABS in direct sunlight long enough and grab it barehanded would teach you a painful lesson about solar heat gain! 

Every now and again, we would encounter a weekend warrior’s mix and match conglomeration of PVC and ABS with a variety of solvent cements, caulking, epoxy and various tapes in an effort to seal up weeping joints. Today, of course, they can slap on some Flex Seal and call it a day. In reality, professionals are only supposed to have one transition between PVC and ABS on each site. 

A range of colors

Solvent cements that are specifically formulated to solvent cement PVC to ABS are labeled as Green Transition Cement, and the color allows inspectors to visually confirm you utilized the proper cement. Oatey ABS to PVC Green Transition Cement, Weld-On ABS to PVC Transition Cement in Green, and others are available through wholesalers or at the local big box DIY stores because they cater to weekend warriors. On the PVC side, assuming you are using a PVC coupling, you use primer and cement formulated for PVC. 

For many years we used clear PVC primer and it didn’t matter if some of the primer ran down the pipe or over the fitting. It was easy to determine if primer had been used because it etches away the lettering on the PVC pipe. On the other hand, a joint joined using cement only was obvious and easy to detect because the lettering ran into the joint with no alteration. 

Then came the primer from hell. Purple, if you ask me, should be limited to fake dinosaurs! Inspectors fell in love with purple primer because they could see it from across the room. Extra care had to be exercised to keep your craftsmanship from looking like a kindergartener’s abstract watercolor attempt at art. God forbid you spill a can of purple primer or dribble onto a floor or splatter a wall. 

Proper conduct

ABS is lighter in weight than PVC but both need to be adequately supported every 4 feet. Bear in mind the added weight for water or sewage when considering proper support — such as when the drain is clogged. Maximum operating temperature limitations differ too. ABS upper temperature limit without being pressurized is 180° F whereas PVC is 140°. Both list 100° maximum operating temperature if under pressure:www.engineeringtoolbox.com/plastic-pipes-operating-pressure-d_1621.html.

My 2012 IPC code book 707.1 “Prohibited Joints” specifically cites: Solvent-cement joints between different types of plastic pipe. If the job you’re on will be inspected, it’s best to ask for permission because forgiveness may not be in the cards! Worst-case scenario is the plumbing inspector decides to change his mind, and suddenly you’re in a conflict. Don’t think that can’t happen either. 

When we were building our new home in 1993, I used clear primer on all of our PVC joints, and this was for four bathrooms, kitchen and three laundry tubs. We had just finished another new home the previous week along with two commercial applications in a mall — all using clear primer with PVC and no issues when inspected. 

The plumbing inspector decided to drop by my home’s construction and loudly shouted who’s the plumber on this job! I thought he was clowning around — surely he knew this was my own home, right? This particular plumbing inspector had a well-earned reputation as a bully-with-a-badge, but we had never butted heads in prior inspections. 

I was up in the rafters, having just completed the last PVC joint in the vent piping. He demanded I come down and then wanted to know what kind of primer I was using. I had, as we always did, both the primer and cement cans taped together, which helped avoid accidentally spilling primer and/or cement. The label on the primer confirmed it was fully compliant with codes and the correct primer for PVC. 

He looked me in the eye and demanded I rip out 100% of the PVC and start over with purple primer. “I don’t know what’s wrong with you idiots. Can’t any of you read the plumbing code book?” 

Well, yes, I can and had, and the code book (BOCA at the time) specifically stated clear primer could be used if approved by the AHJ. Clearly it had been, because that’s all we had used for years right up to the week before my unscheduled surprise inspection. That’s why you should check with the AHJ before using Green Transition cement on your ABS to PVC changeover. Did I rip out the hundreds of feet of PVC I had already installed? I asked the PI if he knew whose home this was and he said he didn’t care. 

“Is this the hill you want to die on?” I asked. 

As it turned out, it was, but it didn’t turn out the way he thought it would. He was almost fired (kept a job with the township by one vote) and was demoted to a job at the sewage treatment plant. He eventually worked his way back to being one of their plumbing inspectors and conducted himself properly on our inspections until he retired.

Sours: https://www.pmmag.com/articles/103055-dave-yates-abs-or-pvc

Fernco 1056-33W 3-inch Flexible Pipe Coupling Plumbing Plastic PVC ABS, Cast Iron, Lead in White

Fernco 1056-33W 3 Inch Flexible Pipe Coupling Plumbing Socket for Plastic PVC ABS, Cast Iron, and Lead in White
Choose what the Pros use and make your next vent, waste or drain pipe project a breeze with the New White Fernco 1056-33W flexible coupling. Connect 3-inch plastic (PVC, CPVC, abs, smooth wall HDPE), cast iron, copper, steel or lead pipes together in little-to-no-time. Simply slide the coupling on and torque down the bands for a leak-proof water seal connection. Whether you're adding a new laundry sink, removing rusted out cast iron pipe with PVC or adding a new bathroom, Fernco flexible pipe coupling couplers make plumbing projects a breeze. Before you grab the primer and glue - be sure and look for the right Fernco flexible coupling. The new 1056 series in white provides a uniform look to PVC or can be easy to find with cast iron or abs connections. Proudly Manufactured in the USA for over 50 years; Fernco has earned the reputation as the worldwide leader in flexible plumbing couplings based on their consistent and reliable performance. About Fernco Flexible Couplings have found wide acceptance among sewer and plumbing contractors and municipalities because of their quality and ease of installation. Fernco pipe couplings and adapters are used for all types of in-house and sewer connections: drain, waste, vent piping, house-to-main, repairs, cut- ins, conductor, roof drains and increasers-reducers. Manufacturing thousands of different flexible coupling types, Fernco has the right solution for most applications.

Sours: https://www.greydock.com/fernco-1056-33w-coupling
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  1. Fernco's underground + ABS to PVC ?'s

    Hi all. Will continue pics of Day 4 on our pond thread later but I thought I needed a separate thread for these questions.

    First we can NOT find transition cement here for joining our abs skimmer to pvc pipe. Our BD is an ABS WLim and it came with a fernco coupler so I caller Fernco to ask about using one to join our ABS skimmer to pvc. I was actually trying to find out what knid of glue or sealant to use if any. When he heard me say it was going to be burried in cement slurry. He stopped me short and said the rubber would be compromised over time and it would eventually leak. He said to try something called a clamp all. What's going on? Now I'm worried about the BD and the skimmer connections. Not sure what to do and this pipe HAS to go in.
    Hubby thinks even if the rubber fails in BD there's so much clay there it will seal the works regardless. We had rain and a foot or so of water in the bottom and even after the trench was complete the clay kept sliding in the way and damming up the works. We joked how we could prolly filler up sans liner!
    I bought the sikalfex 291(a small fortune) and we can use that on the fernco??
    Any experienced help out there.
    " is more n no sense" - Carla

  2. I have seen a fitting at HD that is rubber like a fernco but has heavy metal banding all around it. It is rated for pressure. I bet that would work. I can't believe you can not find a cement that glues ABC to PVC. Home Depot and Lowes both carry it!

  3. The fernco and the clamp all (metal band around a fernco) will both eventually fail. But the time line is so far out that its probably ok. You are going to redo the pond in ten years anyway - right?

    A good friend who is a plumber tells me that "little leaks make big problems". Especially in clay.
    "To bosom friend, to gracious host
    To those who fall, and those who lift
    To those who give, yet mark not gift
    To healing, hope, and circumstance
    To faith, to fate, to meetings chance"
    -Bob Kublin (who I have not met)

  4. Scarey prospect putting a fernco underground. If IF you are going to do it, DO EVERYTHING you can to ensure that it has limited chance to come off.
    "Sarge"


    Disclosure statement: Don't read into where I post, or with whom I choose to call my friend. If you know me - you know me. All people are created equal and all humans have fault.

  5. Carla,
    I use PC-7, which is an epoxy and after setting up fish safe. I just bought a gallon (8 lb) of it from the factory.
    Because I bought a gallon they sold it to me, most places here only have the little 1/2 lb cans. Shipping from Pa. was 2 days to my house.

    http://www.pcepoxy.com/Index.asp

  6. Thanks all.
    Saaaaarrrge! Whadda ya mean scary? You sold it to us.
    Cindy - Yea the thing you're talking about is the Fernco clamp all. I'll look for it a HD. Neither our HD nor Lowes carry the Transition Cement Green, which is the one recommended. I even called Oatey who put me in contact with the "local" distributor who called me back and said Albany (two hours away) was the closest source and we'd ahve to buy a case. Sheesh. Our area is so deprived.
    Thanks for the ideas.
    DH says he might put a piece of plywood underneath skimmer before cementing so that the fitting won't be cemented. If we eventually have a failure we can dig it out there and work on it.
    " is more n no sense" - Carla

  7. Quote Originally Posted by CarlaC

    Cindy - Yea the thing you're talking about is the Fernco clamp all. I'll look for it a HD. Neither our HD nor Lowes carry the Transition Cement Green, which is the one recommended. I even called Oatey who put me in contact with the "local" distributor who called me back and said Albany (two hours away) was the closest source and we'd ahve to buy a case. Sheesh. Our area is so deprived.
    Oatey all-purpose comes in a red can. It glues PVC to ABS just fine! Lowes sells it. Here's a link to the Oatey web site:

    http://www.oatey.com/apps/catalog/sh...=1&prodgrpid=1

  8. The cement labeled multi-purpose will work for you, I'm sure every HD/Lowes carries it. Also most every "rain-in-shine" types will work on both also. You shouldn't use this on fernco's this is just for slip connections from ABS to PVC.

    Fernco brand is all SS. Some knockoffs don't use all SS parts on the clamps and can rust. The 2 types you are refering to are hub and no-hub fernco fittings. You can buy clamps labled as all SS from Lowes also. Put an extra clamp on each end will give you some added protection. You can also take steps to "seal" around the screw assembly with silicone or something else. However most people use fernco's b/c they want access to remove and reconfigure, this would limit that use. The other reason to use on BD would be b/c a fernco hub would allow some slight shifting that may otherwise damage a solid pipe run.

    Ryan S.

  9. WLIM drain - missed that. I assume those using them may set it in concrete to stablize but not extending to around the fernco fitting. I've never actually seen anyone use one so I'm not entirely sure. I would call him for his recommendation on this.

  10. i used the same red can of all purpose cement when i glued ABS to PVC. no issues here. thats not flex pvc though. i did have issues with flex pvc in general. think i was twisting when i join the pipes which i heard was a no no with flex.

  11. I have the Wlim drain with an air line that I used a fernco connection. It is buried under the liner.

    I used polyurathane (as recommended by Kent Wallace) when I connnected the fernco to the drain as well as the PVC pipe to the settlement chamber. Screw the clamps nice and tight and you should be fine.

    Of course, set your drain in concrete to keep it from shifting. I used 2 X 90 lb bags around the drain and the line for the air pump.

    -Kevin

  12. I've had two fernco's go within 2 years each. No way would I burry one. PVC only if it will be burried.

  13. Is Oately "rain-in-shine" okay for flex PVC. I can't find "Red Hot Blue glue" at any local store.


    Andy

  14. We put in two of these bottom drains and I'm certain that they will be a problem in the future. I also think that the air lines to them will be a problem someday where the tap into the side of the bottom drain. The pond industry has a long way to go before they have products that meet my standards for durability and professionalism. We work with what we have and hope for better later. When my bottom drains leak I will have to jackhammer out the concrete around them and then patch and respray the polyurea. That actually sounds easier to me than fixing one in a liner pond. Handling a big liner seems like it would be a PITA to me.

  15. I think the WLim drains all come with this type of fitting?? Is surprised all yall didnt know that

    Look at post #4 and 5 on this thread about how Kent Wallace deals with the fernco fittings. https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...hlight=charles NOTE: I dont believe he says whether or not he preps the bottom drains this way or not...or just the vortexes????
    Last edited by luke-gr; 08-10-2005 at 04:22 PM.

  16. Well... I do love Lim products, just not his bottom drain. Difficult to install, and that Fernco coupler is indeed scary. I've found the new Rhino drains to be pretty nifty. They come in both 4" horizontal (with and without air) and vertical (3" or 4") discharge versions. Built like tanks, and easy to install.



  17. Hmm -- Where to start

    -- Can't address everything even the half that didn't go over my head. :aetsch013
    I will say this - I called Oatey and they said the only cement recommended for JOINING ABS to PVC was the Green Transition Cement. The all purpose can be used to glue either PVC to PVC OR ABS to ABS. Not apples to oranges. See?
    The Fernco with the marine adhesive will probably be fine. Time will tell.
    The idea of a little silicone or something on the fittings seems wise too . The water will prolly seek easiest path anyway and that path should be that pipe - even in a failure.
    I hope. Gulp.
    Guy at the plumbing store was funny. He goes. "I wouldn;t worry about it. You'll be long gone by the time it fails." How old do I look when I'm covered in mud anyway???
    Later guys.
    " is more n no sense" - Carla

  18. Quote Originally Posted by CarlaC
    -- How old do I look when I'm covered in mud anyway???
    I dunno, send a picture.....BTW did Darrell or one of the boys paste you with mud?????

  19. As a professional plumber. A fernco is all rubber with a metal clamp at each end. One that is a thin layer of rubber covered with a metal band and also two clamps is a nohub band. I would not worry about the fernco going bad. If you are worried about the cement causig the rubber to deteriorate put some pipe insulation over it before you cover it with cement.
    I would not use a nohub band for any reason!
    Your best bet though is still the transition glue.

  20. I have tried all those ways listed above and personally rejected all of them for joining ABS to PVC. Instead I glue a screw fitting onto the ABS then screw the ABS screw joint into a PVC screw joint using Teflon tape. That is the only way I have found to insure an ABS to PVC joint does not leak for me. None of the other approaches were dependable and leak free for joining ABS to PVC in this old chemist's hands.
    Your koiphen chemist and environmental scientist.

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Can I join ABS to PVC?

It's possible to join ABS to PVC, but it's only supposed to be done with a mechanical coupling, not glued. If you just came here for the answer, you can stop reading... but I think you want the whole story. Here goes.

Today, there are two commonly used plastics for drain, waste, and vent pipes inside of homes; ABS (black) and PVC (white, mostly). This is almost all that's ever used in new residential construction here in Minnesota, and I suspect for the rest of the country as well. For most systems, a plumber will use one material or the other, not but both. This makes all of the connections simple; the plumber uses a solvent cement (aka glue) made just for that material, things stick together, and everyone is happy...

Until then the "handy" homeowner comes along and messes it up.

ABS glued to PVCABS cemented to PVC

For the most part, ABS and PVC are not supposed to be glued together. We'll turn to the 2015 Minnesota State Plumbing Code for some background on this topic.

ABS to PVC: What the MN plumbing code says

If we turn to chapter 7 of the MN state plumbing code, we can find a bunch of info on drains. Section 705.1.2 ABS Solvent Cement Joints (for ABS) says the following, among other stuff:

Where surfaces to be joined are cleaned and free of dirt, moisture, oil, and other foreign material, solvent cement in accordance with ASTM D 2235 shall be applied to all joint surfaces.

So that says you can glue ABS using something that meets ASTM D 2235. That's the standard for solvent cement for ABS.

Section 705.7.2 Solvent Cement Joints (for PVC) says the following, among other stuff:

Where surfaces to be joined are cleaned and free of dirt, moisture, oil, and other foreign material, apply primer purple in color in accordance with ASMT F 656. - and - Solvent cements in accordance with ASTM D 2564 shall be applied to all joint surfaces. 

So as long as you use the right purple primer, you can also glue PVC. You need to use a glue that meets ASTM D 2564, the standard for solvent cement for PVC. Of course.

So how can these two materials be connected together? We need to turn to section 705.11.3PlasticPipe to Other Materials:

Where connecting plastic pipe to other types of plastic or other types of piping material; approved listed adapter or transition fittings and listed for the specific transition intended shall be used.

That means that if ABS and PVC are connected together, some type of adapter or fitting needs to be used. That's it, that's all that's allowed. The image below shows one such adapter on the right side. This has a stainless steel band going through the middle for rigidity. The coupling on the left lacks a metal band in the middle and also lacks UPC approval.

Stainless steel coupling

What about ABS to PVC Cement?

If you stop by any home improvement store, you'll be able to find a green cement that will connect ABS to PVC, and it might even have an IAPMO approval stamp on it (UPC), so what could the problem be? I mean, it's approved, right?

ABS to PVC cement

The problem is in the standard. If you look up the technical specifications for the product, you'll find that it meets ASTM Standard D 3138. You'll find the following information on the ASTM website https://www.astm.org/DATABASE.CART/HISTORICAL/D3138-04.htm. I added the bold.

1.2 These cements are intended for use in cementing transition joints between ABS and PVC materials in non-pressure applications only (25 psi (170 kPa) or less). Note 1 This specification was developed to provide a means for joining an ABS non-pressure piping system using a solvent-cemented transition joint, for example, joining ABS building drain to a PVC sewer system. The intention was not to create a specification for an all purpose ABS-PVC solvent cement that would be used for mixing of ABS and PVC piping materials nor to specify a cement that could generally be used for either material. Specific cements for ABS or PVC components should be used (see ).

That spells it out pretty clearly, yes? ABS to PVC cement is only meant to connect an ABS system to a PVC system. An example of this would be an ABS drain system inside of a home connecting to a PVC drain system just outside the building, or vice-versa. That's the only place that this cement is supposed to be used.

What if ABS and PVC have already been cemented together?

I say meh. No big deal if this is done. It's technically not right, but that's all. I have yet to find a single failure at this connection point. I've talked to a handful of experienced plumbers about this, and not one of them have seen this connection fail either. I typically point it out as an improper installation, but I leave it at that. I don't tell people to rip it apart and put it back together. Why would I?

Just for fun, I did a little experimenting at home to show how some of these different types of cement hold up. I started by cementing a bunch of materials together with a bunch of different types of cement. I waited 24 hours, then cut each one roughly in half, down the middle.

ABS to PVC Cement

Next, I cut each section in half lengthwise and put the coupling in a vice to get the materials to separate.

ABS to PVC in a vice

I got most of the connections to separate, but not all of them.

Separated ABS and PVC

The easiest section to separate was the PVC to PVC without purple primer. Next was the ABS to PVC without purple primer. The ABS to PVC connections with purple primer were as strong as the PVC to PVC connections with purple primer, if not stronger. It actually seemed to pull the surface of the ABS right off of the pipe. The only connection that refused to come apart was the ABS to ABS; the plastic would probably rip apart before that connection would fail.

Again, an ABS to PVC glued connection isn't technically correct, but this connection is highly unlikely to fail. I think failure is close to impossible; if I hadn't used a vice, there's no way I could have separated the two. There's no need to lose sleep over connections like this.

Author: Reuben SaltzmanStructure Tech Home Inspections

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Reuben Saltzman is a second-generation home inspector with a passion for his work. Naturally, this blog is all about home inspections and home-related topics in the Twin Cities metro area. In addition to working at Structure Tech, he is also a licensed Truth-In-Sale of Housing Evaluator in Minneapolis, Saint Paul and several other cities.

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Abs to pvc fernco

This interested me and I also registered on this site and very quickly got used to it. Naturally, I had one topic of communication. I was faced with the fact that there are a lot of dreamers, although they are not particularly difficult to recognize.

I also faced the fact that many want confirmation of words and ask for a photo. To those who were trustworthy, I sent ordinary photos, covering their faces, but they wanted even more.

Install Fernco Coupling on Sewer Pipe for Basement Bathroom, Glue Pvc Y - #5

She came in, there was no one on the bus except Vanya, he had already taken the conductor home to see the. Conductor. Ira sat closer.

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As soon as she intuitively touched the clitoris a few times, she, hardly shouting something, lost consciousness. 2007 year. April.



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